Wistful Countercultures have headed off on a wee tour and, much like Holywell Street, we paid a visit to the Borders—my old stomping ground. We went to meet an interesting chap, he’s very sussed and a childhood neighbour who I would also class as a good friend. I have always enjoyed chatting with Dean about music, the bands he plays in, and his enduring dedication to the punk scene that emerged in the 1970s. The blog had long hoped to feature a Q&A with him, and we are delighted to finally put that conversation on paper.
How’s things mate?
All good thanks.
I must start by delving into your punk roots. I remember being your neighbour in the ’70s and seeing you out in full punk gear. When and how did it all begin for you?
Well, it was 1977 and although I was only 12, that was the journey, and you would see it on TV, The Sex Pistols, The Damned, The Clash and The Jam actually which were initially punk but they just dressed differently they then jumped onto that Mod revival. Although always being into it, things really changed for me around 1980 when I was a teenager, I discovered bands like Exploited, The Business, One Way System, Blitz. You discovered these bands were just like us, council estate kids very working class and not from London but places like Sunderland, Liverpool, Edinburgh and Glasgow. At that point punk was becoming different, more hardcore … Aye, so The Exploited brought out an album “Punks not Dead”, so was it on its way out by then? Well aye, some folk thought it was, some think it ended in 77/78 when the Sex Pistols split up but far from it, the older crowd thought that, but we were all around 15, so it was exciting for us.
Skateboarding is another one of your passions that would be before punk; do you still take an interest?
Aye, I started around 1975 and still follow the scene, watching videos and keeping an eye on up-and-coming skateboarders. I still visit Livingston Skatepark for a nose—it has just been resurfaced, as it happens. I keep saying I’ll sell my boards, but I always end up buying or swapping more. I was thinking about changing the house around and moving a lot of the memorabilia but I’m glad Angie seems to be cool with it. And of course, there was always a connection with punk and skateboarding? Absolutely! Although more so with the American scene.
My skateboarding hero is Duane Peters who was also the singer of the US Bombs. One of my prized possessions is a hand painted skate deck he did for me.
Who are your biggest musical influences? How have they shaped you?
The band that blew my brains the first time I heard them were CRASS. Now if you liked CRASS you weren’t supposed to like The Exploited and vice versa, there was a rivalry. CRASS were from the hippy era they were for Anarchy and peace almost communist, whereas The Exploited were for anarchy and violence. And with Wattie being an ex-squaddie they had a dislike for CRASS and likewise. But CRASS I saw live around 1980/81 at the Matinee Club in Edinburgh and as I say it blew my brains out. Musically they aren’t good but lyrically they are amazing!
The Pistols were up there as well; I eventually got to see them in 2007 with Johnny Rotten and I’ve seen them twice with Frank Carter who was brilliant. But CRASS were like a political machine, I don’t listen to them much now, but I still wear their t-shirts. CRASS existed before Punk, they were anarchists and were arranging demonstrations. They lived in a place called the Dial House which was a commune farm cottage situated in south-west Essex for a lot of dropouts. They were a collective before they were a band … The Clash I like and there was some reggae influence? … The Clash aye, great band! And they had a mix yes, and the reason reggae had an influence in Punk was due to Don Letts being pals with all the punks and he would club nights on at the Roxy Club, these were punk clubs but at the time there wasn’t enough records to play, not enough punk records were released at this time so Don Letts would drop all his reggae stuff in so punks got into reggae as well and the Clash took that on. That could be seen as an odd mix where subcultures cross? Absolutely and a lot of Skins were into reggae.
What was the first punk rock album you listened to, and how did it impact you?
I would probably say Never Mind the Bollocks by the Sex Pistols, that was the one everyone latched onto, I was about 12 and you were seeing it on TV, it was the year of the silver jubilee and God Save the Queen came out. The Pistols on a boat on the Thames and getting arrested and all that stuff. Also, The Damned – Damned Damned Damned their first album was a great album as well.
Can you give us your top five albums?
Well, this could be hard, and we could be here awe day but let’s mention …
Rancid – and Out Come the Wolves. I was introduced to the American punk band Rancid by a young guitarist in Nasty Nasty. Although I had heard of them, I had never paid much attention until he gave me this album. I thought it was amazing. Released in the ’90s, it features plenty of ska and is well worth revisiting for its 30th anniversary.
I would mention CRASS – Feeding of the 5000, as I said that album blew my brins out.
I have to say Exploited – Punks not Dead, that changed it all for us.
Then I would go with The Damned – Damned Damned Damned I’ve seen The Damned about 20 times I still love them. They are a great punk band, they weren’t political and a lot of the early stuff is amazing and even the stuff they bring out now has a lot of good psychedelic bits on it and they are still touring 50 years later with three of the original band members in the band.
Finally, Never Mind the Bollocks by the Sex Pistols. That’s the album that changed it for everybody. I might listen to that album once every two years and it is till great, but the album is coming up for fifty years old. So, if you can imagine in 1985 when you were a kid and you listened to something in 1935 you would think it was a load of c*rap; but teenagers now will listen to Never Mind the Bollocks now and thinks it’s brilliant. It’s hard to get yer head round it.
I will get to punk festivals now and see kids dressed like I was in 1981, they’ll have green Mohican’s, studded leather jackets, bondage trousers and I’ll chat with them asking them why they are into this and they’ll say because ma parents listened to it. It’s timeless but there’s nae way when I was 15 in 1980, I would be listening to stuff from around 1930, like the auld tunes, We’ll Meet Again or something from Bing Crosby [laughter].
It is a timeless album, and the Pistols are still touring the world with that album with three original members and Frank Carter instead of John Rotten. They are pulling massive crowds. You’ll get a lot of older punks saying the Pistols aren’t the same without Johnny Rotten, but Johnny Rotten is a prick, he didn’t want to do the tour, the rest of them did and they wrote the music, Johnny Rotten didn’t. Frank Carter has said he isn’t a Sex Pistol he’s playing ‘for them’ and everyone is having an absolute ball; I can’t see the problem with it. Steve Jones is one of the best punk guitarists ever and he has every right to be touring the world playing those songs that he wrote. If you listen to the laird guitars in the band are amazing. Glen Matlock was the actual proper musician in the band he wrote Pretty Vacant. And of course, as has been stated, it was the first album with swearing in it? Aye! That’s exactly it and a reason why everyone seems to be into it, tracks like Bodies with that shock factor.
John Rotten seems to be splitting opinion these days. Do you think he has sold out?
Well, no sure if he has really sold out, I think he’s just got old, and even if you are a punk yer allowed to turn into a grumpy auld man and a lot of us do. His politics? I’ve not heard or read that much about his rants, each to their own though and you can follow whatever politics you want. But I am pleased he’s out of the Sex Pistols because he was tarnishing their reputation and their legacy and I am glad Frank Carter has come in. Johnny Rotten as a human being? I think he’s just turned into a grumpy old man.
Do you think he thought the Pistols would be nothing without him?
Aye, exactly that and there he is touring with Public Image Limited (PIL) his other band, he’s the only original member of them and he’s touring with them. I saw him at the Pistols gig in 2007, and he forgot the words to God Save the Queen, he completely fucked it up. Johnny Rotten, well it’s not anymore, it’s John Lydon. But he did lose his wife and his best mate. I went to see him being interviewed at Rebellion and he was an arrogant prick he ripped the face of the guy who he was interviewing although the guy was pandering to him which was quite embarrassing, but he ripped the guys face off for fuck all.
Then he has a swipe at Joe Strummer calling him middle class. Joe Strummer’s Dad was a clerk at the Home Office that’s all. He pushed paper around for fuck sake. Joe Stummer was the real deal. When Joe Strummer and The Clash management sacked Mick Jones it was the biggest mistake, they ever made. He was the song writer and when he left the band were never the same. Then Mick Jones went off to start Big Audio Dynamite with Don Letts, and they were a top band.
Did you do the Oasis gigs last year?
Aye, I like Oasis. I saw them at Murrayfield last year, and they were brilliant. I paid £500 for a ticket, though, and I’ll never ever pay that much again. In January, I’m seeing Psychedelic Furs and The Jesus and Mary Chain for £50, and I’ll probably enjoy that more. Still, Oasis was great, and it was good to share the experience with my son.
I remember you getting into the club scene in the early ’90s much like the ex-football lads, that felt like a natural progression from punk as well—much like Andy Weatherall and Bobby Gillespie. Do you still listen to dance music?
I do listen to bits yes and I went to see EMF this year and the Happy Mondays, so I like everything. I listen to dance music because my son listens to it in his bedroom. I’m not actively seeking out house music if you like. I preferred house music to techno; I like a track where you’d have a female voice in it.
The reason I got into the club scene was I was 28 and I had stopped skateboarding we were skating this ramp at Duns and the land got sold to build houses on, so I was at a kinda loose end. I thought, I’m not going to get back into street skating at 28, and I get involved with the younger team and went on a 14-month bender [laughter] and ended up clubbing in Leeds, London, Middleborough, Glasgow and Edinburgh. I’ll tell you what brought me to my senses though. I was at Carbolic Frolic on half a pill or whatever and I was dancing away and I realised I was dancing to ‘Relight my Fire’ and this light bulb went off in my head and I thought what the fuck are yae dain! I realised that I was in a bubble, but I really enjoyed the 18 months or so.
How is your health these days? What advice do you give to others?
Well, I was diagnosed with prostate cancer two years ago after going for a PSA test, I was 58 at the time, and it came back high at 5.7. I have zero symptoms, I feel absolutely fine, I am on what they call active surveillance. I had three MRI’s and a biopsy, and I get my PSA taken every four months and that bounces between 7 and 9 which is quite high, I also get a yearly MRI, and they just keep an eye on it. They believe it can stay the way it is, I could have my prostrate ripped out and the next two years would possibly be hell which I dinnae fancy. So, my advice is to get your PSA checked.
A lot of guys as soon as they hear cancer, they may freak out, but to take it out is life changing surgery. So, I don’t have any symptoms whatsoever. When I first asked for a PSA test, the doctor tore the face of me and chased me because I had no symptoms. I went back, explained that my dad had died from prostate cancer I possibly had a bit of health anxiety and insisted on being tested because I was 58. The result showed that I did fu*king have it, so if I’d listened to her, I would have been none the wiser!
And the best punk band of all time is?
CRASS! Are the best punk band of all time! As a package of being real punk and living by the punk ideals, the DIY, they did everything themselves, the records, the artwork it’s CRASS! If there was an equation of this plus this plus that it would come and equal to CRASS. Their artwork was amazing. I don’t listen to them now, for a while I was also listening to some Oi including Cockney Rejects, Cock Sparrer, The Business but now I never listen to that either. I go through phases I’m now back listening to the post punk stuff like Spear of Destiny, New Model Army and Killing Joke. In the ‘80s I based my look on Kirk Brandon from Spear of Destiny and that ba*tard still has blond quiff and I’ve not and he’s now f*ckin 70 hahaha.
I also like pop punk like The Off Spring and I like Green Day but if you tell anyone in the punk scene you like Green Day and they want to hang you [laughter]. I still like the Stranglers, how did you view them, you could say they were more than a punk band perhaps went into New Wave? Excellent. You must remember that The Stranglers had been around long before punk, originally as a pub rock band. They were about ten years older than Johnny Rotten and his generation. I saw them last year with the Sex Pistols and Frank Carter. Although only one original member remains, they were excellent—brilliant musicians.
I remember living on the same street as you in the late ’70s and into the ‘80s when your house was often full of punks and there was always a party. On one occasion, Wattie from The Exploited was there, and it became the talk of the street—and then the town. Did you bring him back after an Exploited gig?
Hahaha, aye—it actually made me famous for a while. I was 15, Wee Eck was 16, and we blagged our way into “The Nite Club”, an over-18s venue upstairs at the Playhouse in Edinburgh that hosted early punk gigs. The Revillos were playing, and we got well drunk—we were only laddies. I spotted Wattie standing there, I was still blagging and started chatting to him and gave him my phone number. I told him we were having a party in Gala the following weekend for my sixteenth birthday while my mum and dad were away in Blackpool.
We never expected to hear anymair about it, but a week later he phoned the hoose to say ‘we’re coming doon to Gala’. Wattie arrived in a Mk1 Escort with their roadie, Navi—a complete psychopath—the drummer, I think, and a girl. We met them outside the Abb Hotel and went into the bar for a few drinks, as Toosh was 18, before heading up to my hoose. It was absolute mayhem. The whole street complained about the noise, and my next-door neighbour was ready to kill me. He phoned and warned, “Dean, if ye dinnae turn that music doon, I’m coming next door to wrap that Hi-Fi roond yer fuckin heed.” Then Navi the psychopath pulls out a cut-throat razor and shouted, “Fu*kin let him come in!” They were eventually arrested after Navi and Toosh went tanking up and down Gorse Lane on Toosh’s motorbike! I’m still in touch with Wattie to this day, they tour the world, they are just back from the states.
Do you remember the music tribes of the late ’70s and early ’80s, when subcultures were reluctant to admit they liked each other’s music? How do you view that now?
Well, oddly enough I always liked other music and still do, I liked The Jam and Ska stuff with The Specials, The Selector, – three-minute hero track and Madness. I never hid the fact, but you wouldn’t indulge in it too much due to the tribes and subcultures at the time. But my musical tastes are widespread even more so now, I could go from Country & Western to Discharge [laughter].
I remember the 1979 Mod revival and wasn’t impressed, although I’d probably have been a Mod if I’d grown up in the ’60s. In the late ’70s, though, I preferred the punks. What did you make of the Mod revival?
Aye, the Mod revival came a couple of years after punk, and it was all very tribal. Mods were our enemies, if you like, and we fought with them. Now that we’re older, former punks, skins, mods and bikers all turn up at the same gigs. Those distinct subcultures don’t really exist anymore.
You’ve played in several bands over the years, including Brain Damage. Are Nasty Nasty still performing?
Aye, we formed Brain Damage around 1981, but we only played a couple of gigs. Before that, the Tax Cuts were on the go, although I wasn’t in the band—Ronnie Johnston was. Nasty Nasty isn’t performing now. But we did do about 40 gigs, and we supported a lot of bands including Angelic Upstarts, 999, Argie Bargie, UK Subs, Sex Pistols Experience five times, the Vibrators and Sham 69. It was all good, we got involved with promoters in Edinburgh and they liked us.
We also brought several bands we liked to Gala, including Sunderland’s Hi-Fi Spitfires and Holy Racket, Glasgow’s Hateful, and Edinburgh bands The Threats, also Ska legends Big Fat Panda and The Straw Dogs. We invited them to play alongside us at our Gala gigs.
Can you give us and IN and OUT for this week?
IN: I’ll tell ye what’s in for me this week, is me and Angie off to Ibiza on Monday for a week and I got it for four hundred quid all-inclusive, and I’ve just checked it and it’s went up to eight hundred quid so I hit that right at the right time!
OUT: and I’ll tell you what’s out… is the young mob with tattoos on their faces what the f*ck is that awe aboot? Stop it! You’ll regret it.
Cheers for having us mate.
Nae worries.
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